Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

OK so "need" is a relative term, but my arsenal at this point consists of 2 shotguns, a revolver and a single shot bolt action .22LR rifle. I was considering picking up a Ruger 10/22 for fun (loading individual rounds into the bolt action leaves a little to be desired in .22 plinking) and perhaps to tame the rabbit problem in my neighborhood. I'm not saying a .22 isn't a real rifle, but the more I am thinking about it I am wondering if I would be better off putting the FRNs towards a semi-auto rifle in higher power/larger cal. like a .223, .30-30, .30-06, .308, etc. for SHTF purposes.

I see the advantages of the 10/22 as fun shooting, plentiful cheap ammo, a whole slew of commonly available replacement and aftermarket parts, and inexpensive cost. On the converse, it isn't really good for anything much larger than a rabbit and its effective range is limited.

Should I have something in larger calibre? I don't know that I could justify a black rifle (although the old school M-16 look of the M&P15 has caught my eye). Perhaps a Mini-14 or something similar?

Maybe I need both.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Get an M1 Garand and be confidant in the fact that there isnt anything on this continent you cant kill with it! :biggrin: :cry1:

a 30-30 would be good for hunting as well, though there are better calibers out there, its a good general purpose round from what I understand.

Even if you picked up an SKS or saiga in 7.62x39 you'd increase your odds greatly over a .22lr only

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Weapons are tools.

You need a saw and hammer when building something, so it is with rifles. Most folks are restricted by how much $$ they can invest into rifles and ammo.

But you have to start somewhere. Personally I would get a scatter gun first, then a .22, and then a 30.06 or .308. Just depends on how deep your pockets are.

Plenty of information in this forum.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

.308 (7.62 NATO). Get a DPMS LAR-308b. About $1k if you can find one. Stock up on mags.

http://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=GRFLR-308B

http://www.rrarms.com/cat_images/GRFLR-308B.JPG

OR... get a DS Arms STG-58 for about $1,200:

http://www.dsarms.com/STG58--Austria...info/STG58STD/

http://www.dsarms.com/images/STG58STD.gif

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

gent an AK or AR or SKS or M1 or FAL or mini14 or ....
I'm in a market for AR myself

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

I can't sit here for half an hour telling you all the reasons to start out with an AR. But IMO it is the place to start. I like AK's as well and have three of them. But the AR is a unique rifle in many ways and deserves to be "the one" if that really is all you will have.

1) Flexibility. One rifle that can be converted from military 5.56mm to .22 LR or 6.5 or 6.8 or 7.62x39 or one of the big bores like .458 SOCOM. All off of one serial number receiver. Switch uppers, change barrel length, change caliber, change sights.

2) Compared to most battle type rifles, really good long range accuracy and an easy rifle to shoot well. I love my AK's but I only use the AR's for hunting or vermin eradication.

3) Like the Glock, just an unbelievable amount of "stuff" is out there that will let you customize your AR.

4) US standard which is nice if somebody is prior service.

Etc, etc, etc.

Gregg

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

[QUOTE=branshew;2119053]I see the advantages of the 10/22 as fun shooting, plentiful cheap ammo, a whole slew of commonly available replacement and aftermarket parts, and inexpensive cost. On the converse, it isn't really good for anything much larger than a rabbit and its effective range is limited.

QUOTE]

I've killed everything from a mouse to a 1200 pound cow with a .22 rifle throughout my life time.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

.............................

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Go for surplus! Get a good-quality rifle with a great reputation (e.g., Mosin or Mauser), and spam cans of Eastern Bloc surplus ammunition. Either have plenty of power for nearly all rifle duties. For less than $500, you can have your own private "arsenal" of a rifle (or two, if Mosin) and plenty of ammunition.

If you insist on semi-auto, go for an AK or SKS.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

I think you need to add a good rifle...

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.....where to start?

First decide what you will use it for:

Hunting?

Self-defense?

Targets?

Plinking?

All of the above?

For entry level shooters, keep it simple and utilitarian.

Ruger 10-22 could be used for all of the above.

Marlin 30-30 for hunting and self defense.

Mini-14 or Mini-30 for hunting and self defense.

ARs are a bit higher maintenance that most autoloaders.

Word: Include the cost and availability of ammo, mags, ergonomics, ease of scope mounting, etc. in your decision

Good luck, SC

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

What caliber revolver do you have? If it is a .357 Mag, I would suggest a lever action Marlin or Rossi, chambered in the same caliber. Other ideas would be a Mosin 7.62x54R, or a lever action .30-30. If you feel the need for semi-auto, Romanian AK's can be had for around $350 these days. I would avoid SKS, they are selling for too much $ these days.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

AG, I had a Romanian AK it was pretty cheap, so I'd avoid that.

Back to the topic, the OP hasn't really said what the use would be.

I will say this.

You need a the following.

AR-15
AK
AR-10
FAL
Bolt Action rifle in .308 and 30 06
Shotgun - In pump, double barrel, and semi auto

Hey, just keeping it real, and the more the merrier, also if TSHTF what are your friends going to use? :565:

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

GoD, the OP hasn't given us his budget for a rifle and right or wrong, I was thinking on minimizing costs. He already has the shotgun end covered. True, he has not told us what his end uses will be.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Mosin totaly skipped my mind. That would also be a good way to go if you are looking for a good bolt platform.

Mausers are much better, but the ammo isnt always easy to find.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

+1000 on the suggestion of DPMS Lr308b. It's a battle rifle,sniper rifle and it has high capacity mags......Also it's a nato round.

Best overall rifle, and ammo is everywhere.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

You have to have a .308 with several 30 round mags, there's freaking helicoptors out there!

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

I own three rifles and a shotgun. As pointed out earlier, each is a tool for a specific purpose.

- Ruger 10/22 - Cheap semiauto varmint rifle for squirrel, rabbit, rats, etc.
- M1 Garand - Good for larger game in the 175-250 lbs range like deer, elk, black bear. Excellent for performing a Ma Bell maneuver.
- M1 .30 Carbine - Rooty Tootie Point-n-Shootie; so simple my 9 year daughter loves to fire it. It's short length and relatively large caliber make it a good close combat firearm for home defense.

Note that these are all semi automatic rifles. I want the capability to put a lot of lead downrange quickly if need be.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

get a marlin 336 30-30.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

I don't have a BOL so our plan is to bunker down where we are unless there is some other serious danger that would prevent that. My primary thinking is more on the defense part. I'm not looking for any type of fight, but if one comes my way I want to be prepared. I think that semi auto would be the best way to go.

I should be able to feed myself with a shotgun, but a shotgun has a limited range. If I need to keep someone at bay at a distance a rifle would probably be a better option. If it looks like we need to evacuate, I would want to be able to provide cover and get out with as much ammo as I can (shotgun ammo is on the bulky side). If my house gets overrun and I want to take it back, doing the most damage from afar would be preferred.

As for cost, I haven't set a budget, but $1k is too much. I have other prep priorities that need to be addressed as well. Used is an option. It would also be nice if ammo is widely available. I probably won't do anything for a few months on this.

Maybe it's my cold war upbringing, but the AK doesn't interest me (despite its merits). Are there affordable M1 variants out there? Who makes decent ARs?

Any opinions on the Mini-14? There are several used ones in the $500-$650 range around here.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

That's right! The helicoptors!!! :36_1_25:

Good point! :s1: :wub:

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Saiga in 308. AK simplicity and reliability (note to AR users) and it costs around $500, then spend about $350 on ammo and a nice sighting system of your choice the Iron sights are not too bad as well. You will have a tun key platform that can do just about anything you want just as many accesories as an AR if you want to play barbie. Did I mention it's a 308?
http://www.centerfiresystems.com/pro.../SAI-308-D.jpg


http://www.centerfiresystems.com/sai-308.aspx

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

they have them in stock here
http://www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com/...%2BJDyOLrQE%3D
http://www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com/...aspx?PIC=59417

Can you Buy these in Ca.?

I don't see any thing that says you can't on those sight that have them

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Addressing the two high-lighted items....

Here's a cost-effective outside-the-box suggestion:

look into getting a Hi-Point 995TS carbine; HERE'S WHY...

9mm pistol round (handles +P loads), easily accurate to 50-75 yards, 100 yards+ with the right ammo and shooter. 10-round clips; almost nonexistent recoil (barely more than a .22 rifle); short and easily maneuverable; factory no-questions-asked lifetime warranty; only costs around $225-$250.

That price leaves you $$$ for other preps, as well as for ammo. AND: if you have a 9mm pistol... same ammo in a handgun AND a carbine (just like the "classic" 38/357 revolver-and-levergun combo).

I've got two of them (the old "classic" model, and the new TS model), and am very satisfied with them.

Hi-Point: the guns the "cognoscenti" love to hate! :yes:

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

The Mini-14s or 30s work fine, and are as reliable as an AK. Factory high capacity mags are now available at a reasonable price. Find one of the newest versions with the tapered barrel, as they are the most accurate.

If one of the older models, install an Accu-Strut, and you will amaze your friends with the mini's "new" accuracy.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Interesting thought on many levels, but how much power is going to be behind a 9mm at 75-100 yards?

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

With the right ammo, the 16 inch barrel will give as much as 300fps boost over a pistol, and with much better accuracy and higher hit probability.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Funny you should ask! :bull-smile:

Here's what Speer has to say:

http://www.blackiceinnovations.com/f...ergolddots.pdf

Personally, I prefer the 147 grain bullet... subsonic bullet with suppressor potential:

At 100 yards, out of a 4" barrel (not the 16" length of the 995TS barrel) you get 924 fps and 279 ft-lbs with the 147 gr. And that's out of a 4" barrel.

The 124 grain +P round is almost identical in terms of speed and energy.

In those states where it's legal, folks have taken down deer and wild hogs with the 9mm carbine.

Answer your question? :s1:

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Yeppers!

Add about 20% to the numbers shown on the Speer table I linked to.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

If yo want to keep it the same The Keltec sub 2000 line is far better they make their rifles to fit a variety of pistol mags Glock, S&,W Beretta, Kel tec, ETC.

That way you have the same mag and round as your pistol available in 9mm and 40.


It also folds up real small and does not have the Hi point reliability issues that their pistol line is famous for. The hi point rifles do get good reviews other than small mag capacity though.

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/sub2000.htm


I have one in my BOB with (3) 33 round Glock mags and my bug out pistol is a Glock 19 with 5 mags.

Though personally if I was looking to buy 1 semi auto rifle. I would get a "real" rifle like a non picky 308 platform. AR, Cetme, Fal and those types all need some love to make them run like a top and you still have guns that are more ammo finikey than somthing like a Saiga. Yes I have first hand tuning experience and have owned all the guns I listed.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

The Keltec has a great reputation, and I like that you can get one that uses the Glock magazines... makes life simpler to have interchangeable magazines between your carbine and pistol. If I didn't have the Hi-Points already, I very likely would have gone with the Keltec. And they're in the low $300's, IIRC: not much more expensive.

Though apparently quality has improved, I'm still not sold on the Hi-Point pistols...but who knows?

Their carbines, they got right.

Thanks for bringing up kel tec!

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Glad to see somebody else out there is thinking.:smokin:
:bear_thumb::coolbeer:

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Yes and No. You can't purchase any COMPLETE rifle that has a lower receiver that's listed on the ban. Now you can buy the UPPER, and then a NONE LISTED LOWER.

I have that rifle that I built on a Fulton lower and I use 10 round mags with a bullet button. Check out www.calguns.net that will answer all your questions. :ok:

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

I know a lot of people are enamored with self-loaders, but for long range accuracy on a budget, you can't beat a Savage Arms model 10 bolt action rifle in .308 or .30-06 and the best scope you can afford.

Also, consider what you longest range shot is likely to be. If it's under 125 yards or so, you may be able to get a rifled deer hunting barrel and a good scope for one of your shotguns for a lot less than a new rifle.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Or even cheaper, the Savage Stevens 200 for $315 at Wal-Mart. Only difference (besides the gray stock) is no Acutrigger.

Here is the Savage 11FCXP3 in .308 with scope for under $400 (9 in stock):

http://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=G18632

http://www.rrarms.com/cat_images/G18632.JPG

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Three Ohh Eight. That Saiga is a good suggestion. Unless you are sniping, in which case you'd want a bedded bolt action.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Min 2.0

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

What no ptr91 yet?

Plenty of bang for your buck for about 1k and mags can still be found for a dollar or two.

Not as Barbie like the AR but you can still dress it up a bit...


http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/ptr_v.JPG


:biggrin:

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Nobody ever brings these up, but they are availible everywhere in the country used for under $500. That is the Remington 74 series autos and the 76 series pumps: in either 308 or 30-06, aftermarket 10 round mags available for about $15. I personally if looking for powerfull rifle on a budget would hunt around the pawn shops and the shows for the pump as they are a half pound lighter[often under 7 pounds]and almost never break. Very very little difference in aimmed fire time between a pump and a auto in full power calibers.

Note: Remington is now makeing a Cali special of this pump in 223 that takes AR mags with a "way cool" black plastic stock for $800

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Likewise the Browning BAR short-trac .308 (except no high-cap mags). I think it is a good idea to have a hunting-styled firearm that could double as a battle rifle. Keeps you under the radar and farther from being legislated into illegality.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

One just hit The High Road for $1,000:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=497664

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

We here in the United States used to be a nation of riflemen.
I will say YES you need a RIFLE. I will not make a reccomendation but I will suggest you take the Appleseed course.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

guys guys guys...... *sigh*

This thread is costing me money...

I just HAVE to have a KELTEC SUB-2000 now. I just gotta!

300$ gun that breaks apart to fit in backpack AND used Glock mags....


Time to call the FFL. Looks like I found my new "truck gun". :RockOn:

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

The Remington 74/76 is a very good suggestion hoot. A good friend has the pump action/76 series remington in 30.06. It has never failed him through years of dragging it all over the woods.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

There is no _wrong_ answer here. All we can offer is our personal experience. I've got three AK's in three different calibers. I've got two FAL's that I love. I've got two AR's. I've got a CETME. Plus lots of others including surplus C&R type rifles and modern bolt action hunting rifles. I shoot and enjoy them all.

But if we just look at time on the range or number of rounds downrange in my hands with my rifles, it isn't even close. I like playing with my AK's and they would be my choice in an absolute TEOTWAWKI type of situation. You just can't beat the high reliability even with very low levels of maintenance. And I love the punch of my FAL's. My STG58 displays amazing quality. Steyr knew what they were doing. But even when we say all of that...... I bet I shoot my AR's 10x as much as all the other ones. I hunt with them. I shoot them for sport and fun. Perhaps it is because I'm prior service US Army. Whatever the reason, AR's have pride of place around my house. And my children and wife can shoot them better than the other rifles as well.

Gregg

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

The AR's have plenty of parts and upgrades available, and the ammo is fairly cheap. I have a Stag and a Charles Daily, both good rifles. Along with a couple shot guns.
But like others have said, they are tools.

One "tool" I like is the 30-30 lever action. Nothing to alarming to most people, kinda old school looks, with kick azz action.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Wow, that's frickin hilarious.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

If it's not a big ass heavy, semi auto, mount my scope sideways piece of shit it's not a real mans hunting rifle. Oh, and just for the record, there are a lot of BETTER calibers that will kill anything in north america. The M1 is for hunting HUMANS, not hunting in Alaska.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

There are better big game cartridges than the .30-06 available these days but just to be realistic let's not forget that back in the day everything in Alaska was hunted with cartridges that offer a lot less than the .30-06 does.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Yes, I am well aware of that. My whole point was there are much better rifles to take on a trip like that than the M1 Garand.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

I agree. There are much better fighting rifles than a Garand too but if that's what you have it can get the job done.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

The favorite rifle of elephant poachers in Africa is the AK47 in 7.62x39. They usually use a three round burst into the rib cage so they don't have to do much tracking.[just to put some things in perspective]

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Same with the one my brother has had for over 30 years; and when he lets go with it, you would swear he had a semi-auto.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

There is a complex of arteries fairly near the surface that has been targeted by hunters since even before firearms. It really puts the issue of shot placement in perspective.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

No thanks. If one can afford to take a big game hunt to Alaska.
They can also save and get a proper bolt action.
I know a person that just went on a elephant hunt to Africa. He took a Merkel drilling in 416 Rigby. I'm not saying an Ak47 wouldn't work but it's not the ideal caliber for a hunt like that.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

My intention wasn't to hunt game in Alaska or Africa so back to the task at hand...

I was looking at the sub2000 on Kel-Tec's website and stumbled on to this:
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/images/su16c/pic1.jpg

Looks interesting and the street price should fit the wallet well. Lots of plastic though.

Kel-Tec SU-16C

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

I have owned lots of "cool" Kel-Tecs. I sold them all because they all fell short of the quality and ergonomics necessary to make shooting them enjoyable.

I wish Kel-Tec would put a little bit more into their products. They DO have great ideas. IMO, they are overpriced for the quality. They could either lower their prices or increase their quality to make their offerings a better value.

Re: Do I need a real rifle - if so, what?
 

Those and the 740 semi- auto are OK with a much needed trigger job. Useless without, IMO.

The problem with BAR is that there is not enough "meat" on the top of the reciever to mount a scope base. You might get about 2 1/2 or 3 turns on the tiny screws to hold the base in place. I loved mine but it wouldn't hold zero if it got bumped.